Contructive Info On Aluminum Rods?

[MidShipCivic]

Twicks whats odd to me is a person who lighted your crankshaft didn't want your rotating assembly to account for the material he's taking off it's crucial .

 

[Slippi84]

Twicks whats odd to me is a person who lighted your crankshaft didn't want your rotating assembly to account for the material he's taking off it's crucial .

If you take off weight evenly through out the crank and your machine shop balances it correctly it doesn't matter.

 

[1992awdlaser]

FFWD balances the crank when they are done.

 

[twicks69]

FFWD balances the crank when they are done.

Correct.

As well, I spoke with Darren at FFWD today, and I am going to ship the crank to him to see if it is salvagable and can be straightened. If not, well, it becomes a doorstop or a mantlepiece.

As for the balancing stuff, I do know what I am doing, and it was all done right the first time.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Sent SBR an e-mail regarding their MGP's and this is what I got back today.....

My e-mail:
Tax time is coming and looking for rods for another build. Saw the MGP's but not seeing much info out there on them. Figured I'd ask what you guys would say as to how they compare to say Groden or MGP's? Weight? Anything ya care to add? Thanks.

Scott

Reply:
Here is some pricing for you Scott

We are having trouble with MGP and customer service lately so we are basically just cutting them off

If you are set on Aluminum, GRP is the way to go. However, I am going to try to push you away from aluminum. There is extensive clearance work that you need to do on the block to make sure that they actually fit without hitting the main caps or the bottom of the cylinder walls, and the bearings need to be specially machined to fit as well.

The manley I Beams are what we are going to be running in our RWD 1g and we plan on it making just under 1100rwhp J They are plenty strong and obviously come with the ARP rod bolts as well.

The pricing is attached in the PDF, let me know what you think

 

[1fastlaser]

Sent SBR an e-mail regarding their MGP's and this is what I got back today.....

My e-mail:
Tax time is coming and looking for rods for another build. Saw the MGP's but not seeing much info out there on them. Figured I'd ask what you guys would say as to how they compare to say Groden or MGP's? Weight? Anything ya care to add? Thanks.

Scott

Reply:
Here is some pricing for you Scott

We are having trouble with MGP and customer service lately so we are basically just cutting them off

If you are set on Aluminum, GRP is the way to go. However, I am going to try to push you away from aluminum. There is extensive clearance work that you need to do on the block to make sure that they actually fit without hitting the main caps or the bottom of the cylinder walls, and the bearings need to be specially machined to fit as well.

The manley I Beams are what we are going to be running in our RWD 1g and we plan on it making just under 1100rwhp J They are plenty strong and obviously come with the ARP rod bolts as well.

The pricing is attached in the PDF, let me know what you think

sounds very condradicting. I mean key words "we plan on it making just under 1100rwhp" So they didnt yet. Im no genious, but i bet they will much up bearings, but shit im sure that car wont be seeing many miles, mainly a mile or so a track day.

 

[Slippi84]

sounds very condradicting. I mean key words "we plan on it making just under 1100rwhp" So they didnt yet. Im no genious, but i bet they will much up bearings, but shit im sure that car wont be seeing many miles, mainly a mile or so a track day.

Carver the car that they're talking about is the car that is in the other section under"BLACK BETTY ON THE DYNO!!! Its a proud day at Slowboy Racing" they even have a full dyno video up so I don't doubt that it will make that much hp seeing how they have made 922whp already. The part that is the kicker though is this. Straight from Nate who I trust and believe before all

2 electric Weldon pumps .

Here's a short run-down:

1991 Eclipse GST converted RWD (still a unibody car)
SBR Hard-blocked, Aluminum Rod, 10.5:1 2.0l
SBR Race Head, Ferrea Valvetrain, Crane Cams
Custom Intake Manifold w/ 8 1600cc Injectors
Custom Exhaust Manifold
GT4294 Non-BB (The small 42)
No Intercooler
TH400 3-speed Trans
AEM 1900U
MSD DIS-4
MSD HVC2 Coils x 4
Twin Weldon Pumps
Methanol Fuel

Breaking it in on the dyno made 922rwhp at 42psi. I was VERY happy with that number considering how conservative the tune was and that it was made through a slushbox.

Special thanks to Devin at AEM for his support .



It clearly says they ARE running aluminum rods. Why would they take apart a engine that made 922whp and has more in it to go from aluminum rods to Manley's???

 

[Slippi84]

They are right about the extra work to get aluminum rods to fit but I thought that was just with strokers. That's the problem with aluminum rods. Everywhere I turn people are starting to look into them more and more but there is no concrete info. A lot of I think and hear say. I call places ask questions get answers then I"m told to hold then they come back and say something totally different.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

In the Black Betty thread, they listed MGP's as the rods being used. So now I'm wondering what problems they're having with them.....so I e-mailed and asked. Awaiting reply.

Post #7
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/260635-black-betty.html

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Been awhile since I've dealt with SBR but glad I'm getting quick replies.....

My e-mail (the part that's to the point):
What problems are you having with those guys, if you don't mind me asking. Weren't you guys using MGP's in your rwd track car??? I understand needing clearancing on the block (kinda the same for clearancing for a stroker...which I've had done before). That part doesn't really scare me at all. I won't be doing the machining anyway. Lol. But wondering what would need to be done for the bearings.

Know the weights for the different rods? Thanks for replying.


Reply:
You are right the MGPs are in the drag car now

However, its customer service based. Obviously MGP has made these rods for us before. We asked for them again – they asked US for the specs on them!! They asked weight, length, thickness, etc. We are thinking, “Isnt that your job!!”

And we had a few orders to fill and they just ignored us – still to this day we haven’t gotten any answers.

As far as the bearing work – there is a little pin in the rod cap – you will need to drill out about a ¼ to 3/8 size hole in one of the rod bearings to make it fit. I have never done it before so I honestly don’t know what it entails – but my guess is that its probably something you would want an “expert” to do.

Difference in weight, I’m honestly not sure. I know Manley is obviously heavier than aluminum – but I would need to do some research to check. But they are the rods going into the RWD car next J

If you are set on aluminum – we can get you some GRP’s. the cool thing about aluminum is that you can get a 6 bolt big end but with the stronger 22mm pin – you would just need to get a 7 bolt piston. I have done this setup for a few bigger HP guys. Gone with aluminum GRPs and like a set of HD Wiseco pistons with 22mm pins – BADASS setup.

Let me know what you think

Jeff Bastien


Guess I'm not gonna be looking at MGP's. Shame too. Such a nice price for aluminum rods

 

[MidShipCivic]

If you take off weight evenly through out the crank and your machine shop balances it correctly it doesn't matter.

''It doesn't matter''

Yes it does.

It's not that simple, I wouldn't send anyone to knife edge a crank that did not want to stress relieve it each time after machining it or account for the material taken off with the rest of the rotating assembly.

It's a 4 cylinder with an inherent imperfect imbalance. I'd take that in consideration highly along with it's operating ranges.

 

[Slippi84]

''It doesn't matter''

Yes it does.

It's not that simple, I wouldn't send anyone to knife edge a crank that did not want to stress relieve it each time after machining it or account for the material taken off with the rest of the rotating assembly.

It's a 4 cylinder with an inherent imperfect imbalance. I'd take that in consideration highly along with it's operating ranges.

Darren does that and even if darren didn't balance it your machine shop can. Like I said so again it doesn't matter(which by the way I was talking about sending your whole assembly to balance not any of the other stuff you reffered to)

 

[Zex4g63]

''It doesn't matter''

Yes it does.

It's not that simple, I wouldn't send anyone to knife edge a crank that did not want to stress relieve it each time after machining it or account for the material taken off with the rest of the rotating assembly.

It's a 4 cylinder with an inherent imperfect imbalance. I'd take that in consideration highly along with it's operating ranges.

Just to clear it up with you. Inline crankshafts are not balanced the same as v based engines. There are no bob weights added to an inline crank. The crank is spun with no bob weights and balanced alone with no consideration as to what the pistons and rods weigh. The rods and pistons are weighed and matched. Their weight has no effect on the crank balance as long as they are matched. If someone is buying aftermarket rods and pistons they are already weight matched, so all you need to do is take the crank to a machine shop to be balanced. If your using stock parts then they will need them to be weight match them.

 

[1992awdlaser]

There is extensive clearance work that you need to do on the block to make sure that they actually fit without hitting the main caps or the bottom of the cylinder walls, and the bearings need to be specially machined to fit as well.

This is all you need to do with Grodens to make them fit:

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q296/u2slow/08rebuild003.jpg

That guy machined the rod cap as you can see. Most people machine the main cap brace which is what I will be doing. That is all you have to do to use Grodens on a 2.0L, I'm assuming it will be the same for other aluminum rods.

As for the rod bearings, all you do is drill a hole, big deal. If you order rod bearing from Darren at FFWD, he will drill the bearings for you if you tell him to. Or you can make your own small jig to hold them so they don't move when drilling and so you know you are drilling in the correct spot.

It's not a lot of work to get the rods to work.

 

[MidShipCivic]

Darren does that and even if darren didn't balance it your machine shop can. Like I said so again it doesn't matter(which by the way I was talking about sending your whole assembly to balance not any of the other stuff you reffered to)

A person who didn't want to put thought into altering my crankshaft won't be touching it.

The higher an engine revs and the torque transferred to it ______________________ (fill in the blank.)

Just to clear it up with you. Inline crankshafts are not balanced the same as v based engines. There are no bob weights added to an inline crank. The crank is spun with no bob weights and balanced alone with no consideration as to what the pistons and rods weigh. The rods and pistons are weighed and matched. Their weight has no effect on the crank balance as long as they are matched. If someone is buying aftermarket rods and pistons they are already weight matched, so all you need to do is take the crank to a machine shop to be balanced. If your using stock parts then they will need them to be weight match them.

Yeah I know they are on a flat plane, 180 degree's apart, while V engines aren't that's what you left out. You may be saying this, but someone crankshaft here distorted to hell.

You can't forget the basic fundamentals that counter weights offset reciprocating components. How far can you go? How much could you take out?

Someone out there in the world has empirical data on that subject. I simply was just pointing that out.

 

[Slippi84]

A person who didn't want to put thought into altering my crankshaft won't be touching it.

The higher an engine revs and the torque transferred to it ______________________ (fill in the blank.)

Listen I understand your wanting to be careful but maybe you don't know who daren is or what ffwd is about because trust me other than magnus there is no other dsm company I trust more and I wouldn't even say I trust magnus more more on the same plain. I have talked to darren about this direct and if your interested in info email him he repsonds like a dam automated system

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Okay so anyway, on topic with the thread......

If you had to choose between Groden or GRP's, which one would it be and why? Just a preference thing like Coke vs. Pepsi? Or any "specific" reason that you'd choose one over the other?

 

[Slippi84]

Okay so anyway, on topic with the thread......

If you had to choose between Groden or GRP's, which one would it be and why? Just a preference thing like Coke vs. Pepsi? Or any "specific" reason that you'd choose one over the other?

I have talked to numerous companys and it sounds more like a coke pepsi thing. I would pick up which ever set you can get cheaper and in the length you want. That's a nother factor if your trying to run a basic rod length or something custom.

 

[1992awdlaser]

I choose Groden simply because I know of more cars currently using them. And I believe they are one of the lighter ones on the market. I will search for weights of the various rods and report the findings though.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Yeah, knowing the weight would definitely help.

 

[1992awdlaser]

Average weight of various 6-bolt connecting rods

Stock = 695 grams

Aluminum:
GRP = 470 grams
Map = 470-480 grams
Groden = 490 grams
R&R = 500 grams



All other material:
Crower titanium = 410 grams
Carrillo = 520 grams
Engine pro = 557 gram
Manley H beam = 573 grams
Eagle = 575 grams
Oliver = 605 grams
Pauter lightweight = 610 grams
Crower = 612 grams
Scat = 640 grams
Map billet rods = 652 grams
Pauter = 685 grams
Manley I beam = 690 grams




I will update this post as I get responses. If there are anymore rods you want me to check, let me know.

 

[99redgst]

Average weight of various 6-bolt connecting rods

Aluminum:
Groden = 490 grams
R&R = email sent
GRP = email sent

All other material:
Oliver = 605 grams
Crower = 612 grams
Eagle = 575 grams
Carrillo = 520 grams
Scat = Site says their lightest rod made is 550 grams. It does not say what engine this rod is for though. I sent an email asking for the 4G63 weight.
Pauter = Their site makes my computer freeze
Engine pro = email sent
Manley H beam = 573 grams
Manley I beam = 690 grams



I will update this post as I get responses. If there are anymore rods you want me to check, let me know.

Good info there. Do you know what the stock 6 bolt rod weighs just for a reference?

 

[dsm-onster]

Pauter = Their site makes my computer freeze

Straight from their site.

Engine Series / Pin dia / B E bore / length / B E width / Weight / Part Number

4G63 early, lightweight .827" 1.890" 5.906" 1.116" 610g EVO-210-480-1500F

4G63 late, lightweight .866" 1.890" 5.906" 1.032" 590g EVO-220-480-1500F

Mirage 1.8L .748" 1.890" 5.250" .861" 530g MIT-190-480-1334F

Eclipse 4G63, early .827" 1.890" 5.906" 1.116" 685g MIT-210-480-1500F

4G63 late .866" 1.890" 5.906" 1.032" 650g MIT-220-480-1500F

3000GT 6G72 .866" 2.086" 5.536" .820" 585g MIT-220-530-1406F

Starion 2.6L 4G54 .866" 2.205" 6.528" 1.175" Call MIT-220-560-1658F

6G74 3.5L V6 .866" 2.283" 6.030" .820" 630g MIT-220-580-1532F

 

[1992awdlaser]

Good info there. Do you know what the stock 6 bolt rod weighs just for a reference?

From a search I did I found 695 grams. Added to the list.


Edit: Thanks Matt

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Anyone have info on those MAP rods? Who sells em??? Looks to be the lightest outta the bunch, well, until more weights are posted anyway.